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Debunking false dogmas.

The terror of constant brainwashing indeed spells hopelessness for billions.
A static intellect is when predetermination takes the place of honest inquiry and truth is suppressed. The culprit is misguided religion which leads to fanaticism, barbarism and superstition. This form of credulity is the catalyst of existing adverse and prejudicial conditions that have plagued mankind for nearly 5,000 years.

"When the time of destruction is at hand the intellect becomes perverted." Vridha Chan. 16:17.

Topic of discussion
Can a fool, fool God? - Feb 08, 2002
What Baseball-club owner would pay his worst ball-player the same money as his best? Since he is the owner he can do anything and even through compassion make such a reward. But let's measure the disadvantages of such a measure, his club would go bankrupt because his worst players would never strive to be better while his best players would do less since it makes no sense to be the best. Baseball will become non-competitive and the millions who would be deprived of its entertainment will no longer support it, not to mention the thousands that will be affected by employment. If there were such an owner who lacks such business sense, he would be called a fool, won't he?

 A fool has no value for time or knowledge and so he remains a fool all his life. It certainly requires no effort to be a fool and in the end he/she repents for being a fool and gains salvation. On the other hand, a wise man values his time and works diligently and strenuously daily all his life, in his efforts through austerity and abstinence to attain higher wisdom also gains salvation.

Now I ask what would we call the 'All-powerful' God of the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, Puranas, Zend Avesta, Guru Grantha, and all that other false dogmas that can do anything, who gives the same reward of heaven to both a fool and a wise man? To an intelligent soul, he is not only mortal like the Ball-club owner but even more foolish. In reality, a fool who follows a false dogma is only fooling him/herself. 
                                                                 
                         Redemption can only be a fool's passport to a fool's paradise.

                                                      In search of the One True Religion


                                        "No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth." Plato

WARNING! Reader's discretion is advised - the truth offends!
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Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

No, "blind faith,” is the acceptance of an idea that is clearly shown to be false by science and reasoning. And if you cannot cite a source from your religious text side-by-side with the quotes about natural law then it only weakens your position, not mine.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

And if you cannot cite a source from your religious text side-by-side with the quotes about natural law then it only weakens your position, not mine
Vj ~ "But there is another prejudice which is cherished by many scholars evidently under the impression of its being a well-recognized scientific doctrine. It is that in the ruder stages of civilisation, when the laws of nature are little known and but little understood, when mankind has not enough of the experience of the world, strict methods of correct reasoning are very seldom observed." Swami Dayanand

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So you can't cite a source from the vedas?

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So you can't cite a source from the vedas?
Vj ~ Where do you think he got it from dumb-a-s-s?

PS
He's specifically speaking about idiots like who claim to know the laws of nature.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Still can't source the vedas?

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Still can't source the vedas?
Vj ~ Eshwara is the source of the Vedas.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Could you post the verses from Eshwara here?
Thank you.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Could you post the verses from Eshwara here?
Vj ~ What good would that do?

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." Confucius

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So, it is just another way to say that you can't source one because there are none.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So, it is just another way
Vj ~ There is no other way to put it. It is just as it is "the stupidest of men never change."

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Confucius was an atheist.

You stupidly boast to know and yet fail to cite a source? Amazing.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Confucius was an atheist.
Vj ~ So was I, and here it is - Atheism the path to God.

You stupidly boast to know and yet fail to cite a source? Amazing.
Vj ~ As if you have one to boast about! Amazing.


Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Atheists may be on the right track. Atheists deny an immature image of God. They opt for a more sophisticated understanding. They also require evidence.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Atheists may be on the right track.
Vj ~ How would one who is on the wrong track know who is on the right track?

They also require evidence.
Vj ~ How is it possible to provide evidence without a source knowledge?

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

A more sensible person would want to prove his/her religion by providing evidence. You're refusal to acknowledge that is not only problematical, but it is also ironic.
Have a nice day.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

A more sensible person would want to prove his/her religion by providing evidence.
Vj ~ I never asked anyone for evidence. I made my own effort in study and practice to acquire it and if you need it I suggest you do the same for there is no shortcut to wisdom.

You're refusal to acknowledge that is not only problematical, but it is also ironic.
Vj ~ The wise know it wouldn't make sense to an idiot so why even try. There is no cure for a fool.
"Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change." Confucius.

Have a nice day.
Vj ~ Even better, I'm having a nice life.
"Philosophy and reason will remain the most beautiful sanctuary they have always been for the select few." Albert Einstein

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Thank you Vijai for your concern about me. But, as I said previously, I have already done my own research and have concluded that Aristotelian rationalism is the only way to — "the most beautiful sanctuary"— no Vijai, you're not the only one who lives in total bliss.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Thank you Vijai for your concern about me.
Vj ~ Why would I be concerned when I know there is no cure for a fool?

no Vijai, you're not the only one who lives in total bliss.
Vj ~ I must know I am and you're not. I have a source knowledge that is in harmony with reason and science and in conformity with the laws of nature.


Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

No Vijai — I live in total bliss — not you. Your "revelation" is a breach of the laws of nature. God is not involved with the world and does not perform miracles.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

I live in total bliss
Vj ~ There is no blissful state in the absence of a source knowledge.


"Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change." Confucius

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

"There is no blissful state in the absence of a source knowledge."
Says who, you? Speak for yourself.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Says who, you?
Vj ~ Says the last reformer!

Says him:
"Slavery and thralldom of the worst kind ever follow in the train of gurudom (prophethood), it utterly enfeebles men morally, intellectually and spiritually."

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Everything he said was a lie. Prophecy is not a miraculous communication by God. God is transcendent. Thus, God never communicated with prophets. More importantly, a prophet is an individual with a higher than average intelligence. They are philosophers who are moral, and there are still people with superior understandings of events. For example, Albert Einstein was such a man. Prophecy is a natural event, a higher level of intelligence.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Everything he said was a lie.
Vj ~ Did you read the part where he said truth will always be a "lie" (poison) to a fool.
"Everything calculated to advance the dissemination of truth is like poison to begin with, but like nectar in the end."

a prophet is an individual with a higher than average intelligence.
Vj ~ All the prophets of the Abrahamic religions were illiterate and/or immoral and if you see them as "higher than average intelligence" you're an idiot.

and there are still people with superior understandings of events. For example, Albert Einstein was such a man.
Vj ~ How do you explain your 'understanding' of natural law to be far superior to that of Einstein?

"We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." Albert Einstein

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

If you believe everything someone says because they tell you that they cannot tell a lie then you're an idiot.

The very definition of prophecy is philosophers. And yes, the patriarchs were humans.

I bet you lied before. No one's perfect, Vijai. Don't pretend to be an angel.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

If you believe everything someone says
Vj ~ In belief there are doubts. With me, when reasoning is guided by the correct knowledge it leaves no room for doubt (belief).

I bet you lied before.
Vj ~ Of course, I did! It is what atheists do, but it is still better than idiots like you who pretend to know without the support a source knowledge.

No one's perfect, Vijai.
Vj ~ How would an idiot know who is perfect?

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Vijai, I do have a source knowledge, it just doesn't come in the form of a book. There are so many books that differ in opinion. All of them seem man-made and can be shown to have been compiled and redacted. Religious text is faulty as it contains human error. I take a new approach; we should study the divine laws of nature that God created. There are no defects in the laws of nature. God is perfect.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Vijai, I do have a source knowledge,
Vj ~ Excellent! So what was the (first) language?

the divine laws of nature that God created. There are no defects in the laws of nature. God is perfect.
Vj ~ The mere fact the laws of nature were created means it is defected which also means God isn't perfect. All things created are finite and are subjected to decay (defects).

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

The laws of nature are good. All of God's works are. God is perfect because God can only create what is good. God can only produce "good" things. To believe otherwise, as you do, that God lacks the intelligence and ability to create correctly is actually insulting.

All things decay, Vijai. Even your source knowledge, vedas, a book, decomposes. If that indicates that God cannot create "correctly" to you, then you have a very big problem!

This is not a good argument.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

To believe otherwise, as you do, that God lacks the intelligence and ability to create correctly is actually insulting.
Vj ~ We obviously don't believe in the same God. So everything I say of your stupidity, which is the same as your god, must be insulting to you.

All things decay, Vijai.
Vj ~ All things created decay which includes your "fixed" laws of nature.

Even your source knowledge, vedas, a book, decomposes.
Vj ~ I know, and your stupidity and billions more for the past 5000 years, are solid proof of that. It is the reason the company of the wise are very few.


Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Me "vedas decompose."
You "I know"

Shot yourself in the foot! By your own admission vedas decompose. Thus, your source has defects! No, the stupidity is yours. "ad hominem attacks" explains nothing other than indicating that you already lost this debate.

As I said previously, this is not a good argument.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Me "vedas decompose."
You "I know"
Shot yourself in the foot! By your own admission vedas decompose.

Vj ~ Either that or you're an idiot! Ved means to know and Veda means true knowledge which is eternal. The use of it in a book form is to share the knowledge, when the knowledge is attained by selfless study and practice, the result is wisdom. After that there is no need for the book as it has fulfilled its purpose. So yes, all books, which are paper or pulp, are all finite entities subjected to decomposition. Get it dumb-a-s-s!

As I said previously, this is not a good argument.
Vj ~ How could it be, when the truth offends? God has no cure for a fool. I'm only here because the wise can draw nectar (wisdom) from poison (ignorance).

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So there will be a time when the vedas would become irrelevant. They are limited to a certain period of time. So they're not eternal, dumb-a-s-s! Besides, to say God wrote a book is ridiculous.

Here's your problem: Nature law bears the imprint of divine wisdom. The knowledge, God’s wisdom, is imprinted upon the natural world. Since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only take another form, it follows that God’s wisdom is encoded in the laws of nature that, even in its current form, is eternal.

As I said, you did not make a good argument.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

So there will be a time when the vedas would become irrelevant
Vj ~ Isn't it already irrelevant to you and Spinoza?
Progression is always downward, a law. Yes, this is the age of Kaliyuga (last/dark), the age of total ignorance.

The knowledge, God’s wisdom, is imprinted upon the natural world.
Vj ~ Perhaps the print isn't big enough. How come you and Spinoza are the only a-s-sholes who can see it?

Since matter can neither be created nor destroyed,
Vj ~ Says who?

As I said, you did not make a good argument.
Vj ~ As I said before, either that or you're an idiot who proclaims to know in the absence of a source knowledge.



Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Says Law of Conservation. Yes, profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature. How come you can't see it? The obvious answer is that you're either too stupid to notice or too indoctrinated to care. The acquisition of correct views about the universe stems from an understanding of the laws of nature. In contrast, stupidity is caused primarily by ignorance.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Yes, profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature. How come you can't see it?
Vj ~ Really! If you can see it dumb-a-s-s, how come you don't know the origin of language?

The acquisition of correct views about the universe stems from an understanding of the laws of nature.
Vj ~ All of us had to be taught, so who taught the Greeks the "correct views", which taught Spinoza who then taught you?

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Knowing the "origins of language" is irrelevant for understanding the laws of nature. Rational religion must be in “the harmony of natural law.” A God who writes a book and reveals it to humans breaks the laws of nature. This is illogical. Needless to say, there is no need for “revelation,” since profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature, it follows that the laws of nature are our source of knowledge, not "holy" books.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Knowing the "origins of language" is irrelevant for understanding the laws of nature.
Vj ~ So you're either lying or just a dumb-a-s-s when you say "profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature"?

it follows that the laws of nature are our source of knowledge
Vj ~ But yet it cannot enlighten you to the origin of language and the first civilization on earth.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Again, knowing the "origins of language" is irrelevant for understanding the laws of nature.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Again, knowing the "origins of language" is irrelevant for understanding the laws of nature.
Vj ~ Divine wisdom is knowing everything about creation and if your "understanding of the laws of nature" don't have the answer, it simply means you are and will always be dumb-a-s-s.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Knowing "everything about creation" is irrelevant for understanding the laws of nature. The study of physics might tell you the origins of the universe (i.e. the big bang) but I doubt it will tell you anything about the origin of language. That requires a different field of knowledge: archaeology.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

I agree that "the laws are immutable because they were never formed or created." God formed the world out of pre-existing matter, which he formed into the currently existing universe, and placed into it the laws of nature, and we should study these laws to improve ourselves and society.

Yes, profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

I agree that "the laws are immutable because they were never formed or created."
Vj ~ So where did the laws appeared from?

Yes, profound divine wisdom is inherent in nature.
Vj ~ So how come you don't know the origin (where, when and why) of the human race and language, etc.?



Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

I answered this. Again, it is irrelevant to know the "origin of language" when studying natural law.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

I answered this.
Vj ~ I know but you're all over the place. First you said he created it, then you said he formed it and now you're saying He didn't create or form it but place it.
Where did he get it from to place it, *******?

Again, it is irrelevant to know the "origin of language" when studying natural law.
Vj ~ They are all relevant to "Divine wisdom" with out which even your knowledge of natural law is questionable.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Does it make any difference whether God created the world or formed it out of preexisting and eternal matter, set the laws of nature within it, and is not involved in the earth and its people? I think that it makes no difference. Aristotle felt that it must have been formed out of pre-existing material.

P.S. I also do not think it's relevant to apply human history when learning physics.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

According to Aristotle, the natural system is eternal and constant; God formed it out of preexisting and eternal matter. God established the laws of nature and the world functions according to the perfect laws that God made.

PS Where did I ever mention Spinoza? The opposite is true; you're that One Red Sniffit from Super Mario Bros. Look at yourself. You've even written in his name!

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

God formed it out of preexisting and eternal matter.
Vj ~ Anything formed or created is finite and must decay and finally dissolved. It's a law. Thus your "laws of nature" aren't immutable. Get it lame brain!

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

According to the law of conservation, matter is neither created nor destroyed, it can only take a new form. Thus matter cannot dissolve, only its current form where the information (matter) is stored. The information is the profound divine wisdom that is inherent in nature. These laws are immutable.

Re: The Arab philosopher Averroes

Averroes
Does it make any difference whether God created the world or formed it out of preexisting and eternal matter, set the laws of nature within it, and is not involved in the earth and its people? I think that it makes no difference. Aristotle felt that it must have been formed out of pre-existing material.

P.S. I also do not think it's relevant to apply human history when learning physics.
Does it make any difference whether God created the world or formed it out of preexisting and eternal matter, set the laws of nature within it, and is not involved in the earth and its people?
Vj ~ It makes do difference to an i-d-i-o-t but to the intelligent it does. Where did the laws appear from, for Him to set it?

Aristotle felt that it must have been formed out of pre-existing material.
Vj ~ It would mean I'm much smarter than Aristotle, for I know that anything created or formed from matter, is finite and must decay and finally dissolved. Thus the laws of nature cannot be immutable.

P.S. I also do not think it's relevant to apply human history when learning physics.
Vj ~ How come you're not sure? Is reasoning a failure?

PS.
I know you're same p-r-i-c-k (Spinoza) on the other board.

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